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LilMike?


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Howey
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« on: February 20, 2011, 03:33:46 pm »

Can you cross-post your latest blog over here so we can discuss it?
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lil mike
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« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2011, 07:04:39 pm »

Can you cross-post your latest blog over here so we can discuss it?

you mean link it?

http://muchedumbre.com/obama-a-muslim-phuleeze
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Howey
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« Reply #2 on: February 20, 2011, 08:11:40 pm »


Sure, why not? We'll discuss tomorrow. I'd like to hear your opinion of what a "real Christian" church is.
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« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2011, 06:47:46 pm »

Glad you believe Obama's not Muslim and is an American. But a couple things in your blog merit questioning, over and above your persistent use of Rasmussen as a source.

1. I honestly couldn't believe that 35% of Democrats believed Bush had specific knowledge of the 9/11 attacks. Did he have some knowledge something would happen? Yes.

http://www.thedemocraticstrategist.org/strategist/2009/08/a_quick_lesson_how_to_misinter.php

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There are two different ways that a survey respondent could interpret the Rasmussen question about Bush’s possible “advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks” – one of which is entirely rational and, in fact, undeniably true.

Gee whiz, come on. Doesn’t everyone still remember the warnings Bush received about the potential use of airplanes as terrorist weapons in the summer of 2001 – warnings Condi Rice admitted slipped her mind? Don’t we all remember the CIA memos saying that “something big” was in the works in September? Don’t we all remember the 9/11 Commission and Richard Clarkes’ dramatic statement that “We failed the American people”

These were not hallucinations or the product of fevered, paranoid Democratic brains. They were component elements of the undeniable fact that there were indeed significant advance warnings that a terrorist attack was in the works for the fall of 2001 – a fact that was the central subject of the 9/11 commission hearings, 10 or 15 books and hundreds of articles.

One would have to throw out every single academic study of the past 30 or 40 years about the effects of question wording on survey response not to recognize that, for many survey respondents who remembered the 9/11 Commission Report and other media coverage, the phrase “advanced knowledge of the 9/11 attacks” could be cognitively processed as meaning “The Bush administration had substantial advance knowledge from U.S. intelligence sources that a terrorist attack on the U.S. was being predicted as imminent in the fall of 2001” rather than “The Bush Administration had specific and detailed advanced knowledge about a particular group of 19 Saudi Arabian terrorists armed with box cutters and trained to fly commercial jet aircraft who planned to hijack four U.S. airliners at 9:45 in the morning on September 11th 2001 and attempt to crash two of them into the New York World Trade Center”

That's kinda my train of thought on this...

2.  Your comments regarding Obama and Trinity United. I've never really pictured Trinity United when thinking of Obama's faith, I think he has faith. More...

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The Trinity United Church of Christ that Obama attended in Chicago preached a strain of Christianity that most American Christians don’t recognize.  It’s Christianity of conspiracy theory, anti Semitism and anti Americanism.   I think when many Americans hear Obama say he’s a Christian, they are picturing Trinty United.

I wouldn't say that's entirely accurate, either. This article gave me a better understanding of Obama and his faith:

http://www.newsweek.com/2008/07/11/finding-his-faith.html

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The cross under which Obama went to Jesus was at the controversial Trinity United Church of Christ. It was a good fit. "That community of faith suited me," Obama says. For one thing, Trinity insisted on social activism as a part of Christian life. It was also a family place. Members refer to the sections in the massive sanctuary as neighborhoods; churchgoers go to the same neighborhood each Sunday and they get to know the people who sit near them. They know when someone's sick or got a promotion at work.

At the time, Obama was a young man who'd been through a spiritual journey, not uncommon for someone with his background. If anything, the Trinity United Church of Christ (which, btw, is a part of the much larger and mainstream United Church of Christ) afforded him an outlet to become a part of the black community and do what his heart's desire was: to organize, teach and help those in the community become better people.

Granted, Wright was a bit of a crazy guy, but Obama's mission wasn't to pray before Wright, it was to lay the foundation of a political future. Which he did quite well. As you admit:

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He respects religion because he responds to the people who believe, and he seems oriented toward leveraging the religious beliefs of the people for worldly, political ends.
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lil mike
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« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2011, 10:09:27 pm »

At the time, Obama was a young man who'd been through a spiritual journey, not uncommon for someone with his background. If anything, the Trinity United Church of Christ (which, btw, is a part of the much larger and mainstream United Church of Christ) afforded him an outlet to become a part of the black community and do what his heart's desire was: to organize, teach and help those in the community become better people.

Granted, Wright was a bit of a crazy guy, but Obama's mission wasn't to pray before Wright, it was to lay the foundation of a political future. Which he did quite well. As you admit:


I suspect most churchgoers had a hard time imagining someone being in a church with a minister like that unless he shared those views.  The fact that Obama praises Wright in his books speaks for its self.  Obama wouldn't be the first politician to use their church membership for political gain, but for mainstream America, but that church is not mainstream, regardless of the denomination it belongs to.

So how do you see it?  Did he accept Jesus Christ as his Lord and personal savior, or is he merely "nodding to the local superstitions.?"
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« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2011, 10:20:55 am »

I suspect most churchgoers had a hard time imagining someone being in a church with a minister like that unless he shared those views. 

I disagree...let's look at Catholics. Many Catholics approve of abortion, yet none of their priests do. Should they not attend church because of that?

Just because you support your minister, doesn't mean you approve of every word he says. Eventually, whether because of the election or not, Obama had to split with Wright. From my article:

Quote
Last March, when video clips of Wright damning America blitzed the airwaves, Obama wrote a speech about race that he hoped would save his campaign. But it was, to some, also a speech about faith. Obama tried to explain his relationship with his pastor, to appeal to Americans' sense of the best in themselves. He spoke of racial divides in America as "a part of ourselves we have yet to perfect," and of his pastor as a flawed, human creature. "That speech," says Paul Elie, the Catholic author of "The Life You Save May Be Your Own," "is steeped in Christianity. We have relationships, they're all flawed, we're all broken. You can't renounce your history with a person at a stroke, we have to fare forward with other imperfect people and resist the claims to perfection coming from both sides." After Wright's performance a month later at the National Press Club, Elie says, Obama was right—and Christian—to repudiate him.


Obama wouldn't be the first politician to use their church membership for political gain, but for mainstream America, but that church is not mainstream, regardless of the denomination it belongs to.

Hence my question. What do you consider a "mainstream" church?
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« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2011, 10:21:29 pm »

I disagree...let's look at Catholics. Many Catholics approve of abortion, yet none of their priests do. Should they not attend church because of that?

Just because you support your minister, doesn't mean you approve of every word he says. Eventually, whether because of the election or not, Obama had to split with Wright. From my article:

That's not an issue with protestant churches much.  The Catholic church is a heirarchy.  You can't start your own Catholic church with your own special beliefs.  You are pretty much stuck with what Rome gives you.  That's why you do have in America cafeteria catholics, who pick and choose what beliefs they want.

With most Protestant churches when people don't like the minister or the message, they beat feet.

But I think the crux of what you are getting to is you want to say that Obama didn't really beleive the kooky stuff coming out Wright's mouth.  You are making a defense that Obama didn't make (up until the day he actually left the church).

I think his books and public comments before he denounced Wright speak for themselves.


Hence my question. What do you consider a "mainstream" church?

Are you talking overall or just Christian?
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« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2011, 09:44:08 am »

You can't start your own Catholic church with your own special beliefs.  You are pretty much stuck with what Rome gives you. 

Yeah...Tell that to the Protestants in general and Lutherans in particular...


That's why you do have in America cafeteria catholics, who pick and choose what beliefs they want.

Wait. Didn't you just say;

Quote
You can't start your own Catholic church with your own special beliefs.

But I think the crux of what you are getting to is you want to say that Obama didn't really beleive the kooky stuff coming out Wright's mouth.  You are making a defense that Obama didn't make (up until the day he actually left the church).

No. What I'm saying is that Obama attended the church in spite of the few crazy things Wright said. (He also preached the value of the family and other worthy causes that folks like you and the right wing overlook in demonizing him and the church.) Remember, the Trinity United Church preached many more mainstream, conservative issues than one of it's ministers upset over how America treated the black person. I'm sure the Catholics and Christians would be more vocal if they had been the oppressed as opposed to being the oppressor.

http://truthabouttrinity.blogspot.com/

Are you talking overall or just Christian?

Let's just go with

What do you consider a "mainstream" church?
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« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2011, 03:15:11 pm »

I think Obama is Christian because he wanted to be in poltics. I think had he just intended on being a professor, we would have seen him more 'agnostic' (or just non-practicing)than anything else. I think the idea of family and community is something he truly believes in, but I don't think he feels that you also need Jesus Christ the way real hard-core Christians do.

That doesn't mean he's not religious, it just means I  don't think it would be a priority in his life if it wasn't a priority of politics.

I certainly don't hold his lack of true-blood,hard core devoutness against him.. nor do I hold it against him if he 'fakes' it. I find it more of a sad commentary on our part that we would have our pols  fake it rather than to be adult about it and move away from where they are all forced to have a Jesus fish on their bus and a flag-pin on their lapel ...

if he was Muslim I can't see that I'd care...any more than if he was Jewish...  but, I do admit that if he was a Jehovah Witness,Scientologist,Mormon.. well I would have issues.

so maybe I need to be a little more 'adult' myself as well... Undecided
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Facts are the center. We don’t pretend that certain facts are in dispute to give the appearance of fairness to people who don’t believe them.  Balance is irrelevant to me.  It doesn’t have anything to do with truth, logic or reality. ~Charlie Skinner (the Newsroom)
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« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2011, 03:29:32 pm »

/\ /\ /\ /\ /\ /\  wss.
 

I do admit that if he was a Jehovah Witness,Scientologist,Mormon.. well I would have issues.
so maybe I need to be a little more 'adult' myself as well...

At least you're honest. Wink

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« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2011, 03:15:26 pm »

Yeah...Tell that to the Protestants in general and Lutherans in particular...


Wait. Didn't you just say;

No. What I'm saying is that Obama attended the church in spite of the few crazy things Wright said. (He also preached the value of the family and other worthy causes that folks like you and the right wing overlook in demonizing him and the church.) Remember, the Trinity United Church preached many more mainstream, conservative issues than one of it's ministers upset over how America treated the black person. I'm sure the Catholics and Christians would be more vocal if they had been the oppressed as opposed to being the oppressor.

http://truthabouttrinity.blogspot.com/

Let's just go with

What do you consider a "mainstream" church?

I really am not sure what you are trying to get to with that question, but I suppose I would answer that all of them seem mainstream.  At least until you delve deep down in their theology.  Case in point, the Mormons.  They have a set of surface beliefs that seem fairly generic protestant, untill you delve deep into it, and it starts looking more like Scientology than Methodists.

Thats a good example:  Scientology.  I barely regard it as a religion, more like a scam.
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« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2011, 05:38:56 pm »

Scientology.  I barely regard it as a religion, more like a scam.

One could consider the Mormon practice of tithing or the Catholic practice of poking you in the face with a donation plate a scam too, ya know.

**EE voice**

Scientology is no different than any other religion. It's based on a book and mythological creatures.

**EE voice**
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lil mike
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« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2011, 08:20:38 pm »

One could consider the Mormon practice of tithing or the Catholic practice of poking you in the face with a donation plate a scam too, ya know.

**EE voice**

Scientology is no different than any other religion. It's based on a book and mythological creatures.

**EE voice**


As a general rule of thumb, "**EE voice**" never helps you with an argument!
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« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2011, 08:43:01 pm »

As a general rule of thumb, "**EE voice**" never helps you with an argument!

+5
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« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2011, 09:32:00 am »

As a general rule of thumb, "**EE voice**" never helps you with an argument!

I know...but it makes for a lot of fun!

Disclaimer: That was a proper analogy. Tongue
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