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If I May Ask Obama Supporters...

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ekg
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« Reply #15 on: June 22, 2012, 09:07:05 pm »


The guy, damn it's bugging me that I can't remember who he was...anyway...he LITERALLY said that business is "crushing" your competition. Annihilating it.  It's not about a better product (though desirable), it's about strangling and destroying anything that stood in your way or took even one cent from your profit. 

and I'll bet he calls that free-market and capitalist... when it's the exact opposite.. Free-market is her idea, the better product wins.. his is why capitalism can never work, Greed
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« Reply #16 on: June 22, 2012, 09:51:14 pm »

I provided fresh data about the amount debt GM has cost tax payers. My statement about GM's minimal ops here is an informed opinion which you are free to disprove or disagree as you know.

Wait. You're making shit up and then challenging me to prove my point?

Handle it ekg. I'm outta here.
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« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2012, 12:46:39 pm »

I provided fresh data about the amount debt GM has cost tax payers. My statement about GM's minimal ops here is an informed opinion which you are free to disprove or disagree as you know.



no, what you did is use *fact*, then throw erroneous claims in with those *fact* as if the claim was backed up in some way.. we all do it to some extent or another.. but when caught, we don't say "It's my opinion, now prove yours"

Quote
I provided several sources that all spell out how much tax payers lost and that the gov still owns 26% of an American company which has essentially set up shop in China with minimal ongoing US operations.

well..


Quote
And that's the political reason: If it were to unload its shares today, the government would lost $16 billion on the deal. "At GM's Monday closing price of $21.11 a share, the government would lose $16 billion on its $49.5 billion bailout," the Detroit news reports.

let's forget about the 'spelling' issues this 'blog' has.. and look at reality for a minute.. sure, if it were sold it would be a loss.. so would the fact that he's not selling mean he doesn't want the loss and is doing what all investment persons would advise? and holding onto the stock until it goes up, because it will go up..nah, Mitt says he's just playing politics by not selling..

I won't even go into the issues with that..because I don't think it would matter. But it is a tad bit skewered don't you think?

and none of it proves the US has minimal involvement because it's all been shipped to China..
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« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2012, 05:15:20 pm »

Wait. You're making shit up and then challenging me to prove my point?

Handle it ekg. I'm outta here.

Firstly, I don't get into these things to fight. Neither of you have addressed the enormous burden which is ongoing to American tax payers, which negates claims of a success. I was simply saying that I'm not interested in proving what is common sense to me. While that certainly doesn't adhere to official debates, neither does your lack of acknowledging the debt, which makes it very easy to be selective in an assessment. I'm sure that we would all agree that our interest in these things stems from a love for the country where we grew up and a desire for equal rights and economic opportunity for the willing. That grew into me wanting to understand a larger picture of how so many things that have been done are not in American's interest.
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« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2012, 07:18:56 pm »

FactCheck FactChecks FooFa
Quote
Q: Is General Motors becoming ‘China Motors’ using taxpayer dollars?

A: No. The restructured GM is still based in Detroit and is still one-third owned by the U.S. government. But it sells nearly as many cars in China as in the U.S. and has continued expanding operations there.

FULL QUESTION

How much of this is true?

    Subject: Video – No more GM cars for me!

    WHAT AN EYE-OPENER!
    No more GM cars for me.

    Even if this were only half true it would light a fire under you. Trouble is, it’s ALL true !!!

    CLICK ON the LINK below and open up your eyes….

    http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=Lvl5Gan69Wo

    YES, YOUR TAX MONEY AT WORK, THANKS TO THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION !!!!!

 

FULL ANSWER

Several readers have asked us about the claims stated in a viral video that criticizes General Motors’ expanding operations in China. The video has received more than half a million views on YouTube since it was posted May 4. The narrator, a man who gives his name as Vince Wade, asks: “Did we bail out GM so that it could become a Chinese company?”

It’s a fair question. The short answer is, “No.”

Still American

GM is still a U.S.-based multinational auto company, incorporated in Delaware and headquartered in Detroit. In fact, according to the Congressional Budget Office, about 33 percent of the stock in GM is still owned by the U.S. Treasury as a result of a taxpayer-assisted bankruptcy and downsizing in 2009.

But the company sells cars in more than 120 countries and accounted for nearly 12 percent of all car and truck sales worldwide last year (11.9 percent, according to GM’s annual report). It’s also true that China is now the largest market for car sales on earth. Total car sales in China surpassed those in the U.S. in 2009. China retained the lead in 2011, and that lead is expected to grow in the future.

So like it or not, the world’s automakers have been drawn to this huge and growing market, and GM has been particularly successful there. The video’s narrator clearly doesn’t like it.

His video asks, “Was the bailout a mistake?” And he goes on to quote an account criticizing GM’s Cadillac brand for supposedly currying favor with “the underworld mob that runs China.”

We won’t offer opinions on whether or not GM or any other company should be doing business in China, or on other controversial issues on which the narrator takes a stand. Our job is to look at the facts.

Overall, the video gives a one-sided picture. And on a couple of points it misleads. Here we offer a more complete and accurate picture, so readers may decide for themselves how they feel about GM’s dealings in China.

GM Expanding

Narrator Wade states that “GM has been shrinking its U.S. operations, while it’s aggressively expanding and investing in the People’s Republic of China.” But the fact is GM is currently expanding in both places.

It’s true that GM shrank much of its U.S. operations — shedding old brands and dealerships and many workers — when it went through bankruptcy in 2009. The alternative was to go out of business entirely.

But since then, the “new” GM has enjoyed expanding sales and operations. For example, it  announced in January that it is building a new, $200 million stamping plant in Arlington, Texas. And it states: “Since June 2009, the company has announced more than $6.9 billion of investment to upgrade or expand operations in 12 states, creating or retaining more than 17,600 jobs.”

It’s true that GM also has been expanding in China — but that was true long before the bailout. The “old” GM (the one that went bankrupt) was the largest foreign car maker in China in 2008, battling for supremacy there with Volkswagen.

The “new” GM has continued that overseas success. It sold a record 231,183 vehicles in China in May, up 21 percent from a year earlier, for example. That compares with 245,256 vehicles sold in the United States, up 11 percent from a year earlier and the highest in 33 months.

Cost to Taxpayers

The video is also misleading as to the cost of taxpayer support. It cites a figure of $80 billion, which actually covers the government’s peak disbursements for both GM and Chrysler, as the narrator mentions in passing. But the net cost of the entire bailout is currently estimated to end up being $19 billion (by the Congressional Budget Office) to $22 billion (by the U.S. Treasury).

Most of that $80 billion has been recovered through interest payments, loan repayments and sale of government-owned stock. And of course, some portion of that is attributable to bailing out Chrysler.

Taxpayers still own about 33 percent of GM stock, according to CBO (other calculations put the total closer to 32 percent). Either way, the final cost of the bailout depends largely on whether the price of GM stock rises or falls between now and when the government decides to sell its shares.

So the better GM does, the less U.S. taxpayers will be hurt. And a key part of GM’s global business strategy is selling and manufacturing cars in China. As then-GM CEO Rick Wagoner said in 2008: “The automaker that gets China right will be the future leader of the industry.”

Global Auto Realities

Much of the video is devoted to showing GM Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Daniel F. Akerson explaining GM’s overseas operations to reporters in Shanghai in February 2011. Akerson noted that almost “seven out of 10 of our vehicles were made outside the United States” and that “we have 11 joint ventures” with government-owned Chinese companies (which the narrator later describes as partnerships with the “autocratic, anti-Democracy, Communist government of China”).

Akerson goes on to say, “We’re involved in vehicle manufacturing, sales, distribution, engineering design” and other auto-related businesses. He also said GM operates 11 assembly plants and four power train plants in eight cities in China.

That may sound surprising to some viewers, but the fact is that building and selling cars outside the home country is standard for multinational auto firms today. Japanese and German firms have many manufacturing facilities in the U.S., for example.
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« Reply #20 on: June 23, 2012, 08:59:15 pm »

Firstly, I don't get into these things to fight. Neither of you have addressed the enormous burden which is ongoing to American tax payers, which negates claims of a success.

this is why I do not enjoy trying to answer you.. you simply ignore the time it takes to break something down into a easy to chew morsel and then claim "You never addressed my question"

fuck you dude..

I was simply saying that I'm not interested in proving what is common sense to me.

what is common sense to you is insanity to others.. but hey, if you want to just fling shit on the walls.. do it in your section and for the love of God, stop asking us questions because you don't want answers, you just want to rant your 'common sense' and ignore valid answers..

While that certainly doesn't adhere to official debates,
'

Oh hell, it doesn't adhere to any 'official' conversation standards.. much less 'debate'

neither does your lack of acknowledging the debt, which makes it very easy to be selective in an assessment. I'm sure that we would all agree that our interest in these things stems from a love for the country where we grew up and a desire for equal rights and economic opportunity for the willing. That grew into me wanting to understand a larger picture of how so many things that have been done are not in American's interest.

explained.. and ignored..

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« Reply #21 on: June 23, 2012, 09:44:25 pm »


You're a god damn bitch and I hope we never speak again, Fuck you.
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« Reply #22 on: June 23, 2012, 11:48:45 pm »

You're a god damn bitch and I hope we never speak again, Fuck you.

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« Reply #23 on: June 24, 2012, 06:29:01 pm »


I'm sorry for losing my temper. Perhaps you can explain how debt made out of fiat currency, which is what money is, which will never be paid off but will keep most people in debt slavery is irrelevant to GM's 'success'.

It's similar to the property tax hoax, you don't really own anything due to the "rent"/tax. It wasn't even in existence until about 60 years ago.
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« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2012, 09:08:52 pm »

Perhaps you can explain

not I said the brown bear..

it just ain't gonna happen..

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