NSA mispresented data to FISA

[44nutman]

http://www.cnn.com/2013/08/21/politics/nsa-fisa-court/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

This is starting to get comical.
1st - Snowden is a traitor and a liar but mostly a lying traitor.
2nd - Alright we do some spying but it is only on those damn Muslims or terrorists. Mostly terroristic Muslims. We are about protecting Americans, Fuck yeah! We don't have the capability to spy on Americans.
3rd, Ok, listen a couple Americans got caught up in on us spying,  on Muslim terrorists. We accidently spied on a few Americans, no harm no foul! "If you ain't doing nothing wrong, don't worry about it."
4th OK, OK you fucking got us, we was spying on US citizens and illegally collecting  data and purposely misleading the FISA court about it. Yeah we lied to a fucking court, but don't worry none of us will go to jail for it. Basically we took a dump on the Constitution. Hey look over there,  gays, abortion, guns. 

Don't worry Obama appointed James Clapper to look into it.

[uselesslegs]

It won't be corrected because *we the people* scream our heads off...they (politicians) haven't listen to us for years now.

Want to see the shit stop? Convince some of those Congresspeople and Senators that THEY were in the mix of *accidental* viewing...then suddenly, they'll care...like REALLY care.  They can get shit done when they want to. Like the sequester crap that fucked up airline travel. "What?! I'll have to possibly wait longer or not fly at all? FUCK THAT!" Bang...fixed.

You just have to know how to appeal to greed, stubborn platforms, vanity and a host of other self interested, narcissistic traits to get shit done. "Affects you? Tough shit. Affects me? Some shits gotta channngeee around here!"

[Howey]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzx

[44nutman]

Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzx

When a government office, knowingly breaks the law, lies to a court and shits on the constitution it can be pretty tiring.


Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

Ben Franklin

[Howey]

When a government office, knowingly breaks the law, lies to a court and shits on the constitution it can be pretty tiring.


Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

Ben Franklin

Oh cut the libertarian bullshit, 44lilMike.

"This was a situation where there was technological problem that could not be avoided, rather than any overreach"

Aside from the fact that this was started under Bush and stopped under Obama in 2011...

Allow me to invoke the Godwin Law here. Not since the McCarthy Era has this nation taken on the paranoia of the Hitler regime in the 1930's. Intelligence gathering has entered the 21st century. We either keep up or get blown up.


And cut the silly Franklin quotes. I deal with this every day on another forum...some "patriot" quoting one of the founding fathers. Most people have no idea what that founding father meant.

http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2011/09/21-platform-security-wittes

In short, Franklin was not describing a tension between government power and individual liberty. He was describing, rather, effective self-government in the service of security as the very liberty it would be contemptible to trade.[1] Notwithstanding the way the quotation has come down to us, Franklin saw the liberty and security interests of Pennsylvanians as aligned. The difference between what he meant and what we remember him as saying perfectly encapsulates our tendency to mangle intellectually the true relationship between liberty and security.

[ekg]

nutty, I agree with what you're saying.  Thru the Bush years I spent so much time railing on this very issue.. only to be told "quit being so hyperbolic, FISA will prevent any corruption because fISA will always approve any request so there's no need to go around them"(like that's any better)..

I was bombarded with 'you're being ekg again on a non-issue, if you follow this to it's logical conclusion(this is my fav argument btw), then you'll see the only thing at the end is stopping terror"..

lilmike,mickey,wrongo,gordo.. even the so-called resident 'libertarian'.. none of them cared and all blamed me for trying to make a big deal out of it...much like the MSM was made into the bad guys for mentioning it during the same years..

my warning was always this "One day it won't be your president who is using these powers and then what?"..

so that day is here... does anyone really care? I don't think so. I think some of us liberals look around and say "I don't like it, but I trust Obama... now if this was Sen Cruz or Dick Cheney well then I'd have to start a war".. and idk if they're wrong.. they're not totally right, but definitely not totally wrong either..we know Obama's an adult who thinks things thru so we say "I trust him".. idiotic I know because what happens when it's not our president, but that's the truth of it I think..

because of the techie world we're going to be living in for the rest of our lives we're going to be fighting these issues.. there is going to have to be a change in the constitution before to long to encompass all the technology that's available now and what will become available.. because think about it, is it really spying if the gov't can turn your cell phone on and listen to you thru you're speaker phone? Is that mentioned in the constitution as being a huge 'no-no'? or has technology surpassed the laws on the books.. sure it might be illegal now that we know about it, but was it then? Was what Rupert Murdoch's son did with his phone-hacking illegal or just immoral.. I'm sure now it's illegal but was it then?

I understand your angst because I had it just as strongly a cpl years ago when it was teh CIA doing all the lying and bullshitting... the problem is nobody cared then and no body cares now.. we've been fed a load of horse-shit for so long that we're fat,lazy, and Un-involved... it doesn't look good for the republic when you look out over the decades.... but maybe somewhere along the way we'll care again and get back what we've freely given away.

[44nutman]

Oh cut the libertarian bullshit, 44lilMike.

Aside from the fact that this was started under Bush and stopped under Obama in 2011...

Allow me to invoke the Godwin Law here. Not since the McCarthy Era has this nation taken on the paranoia of the Hitler regime in the 1930's. Intelligence gathering has entered the 21st century. We either keep up or get blown up.


And cut the silly Franklin quotes. I deal with this every day on another forum...some "patriot" quoting one of the founding fathers. Most people have no idea what that founding father meant.

http://www.brookings.edu/research/papers/2011/09/21-platform-security-wittes

Sorry I expect my government not to lie to me and at least follow the rules and not break them when said rules are inconvenient. Hey snoop all you want, but there is a little thing called probable cause.

This is where you and I differ. I don't give a fuck what letter is after someone name, if they are doing something that is wrong, well it is wrong.

Don't worry though, not one single fuck is given. Soon we can get back to arguing about guns, gays and abortion. Yippeeee!

[ekg]

Sorry I expect my government not to lie to me and at least follow the rules and not break them when said rules are inconvenient. Hey snoop all you want, but there is a little thing called probable cause.

This is where you and I differ. I don't give a fuck what letter is after someone name, if they are doing something that is wrong, well it is wrong.

Don't worry though, not one single fuck is given. Soon we can get back to arguing about guns, gays and abortion. Yippeeee!

you seem to have an anger about these issues because you're always snubbing them in your posts anymore.. I know they may not seem much in the grand scheme of things but they happen to be the things where we can elicit some kind of positive change...

besides that, those issues do mean a lot to those that they affect. The way the snooping issue means alot to you because it could be you..

the gay issues means alot to Howie because while you and your wife can have all the freedoms this country allows you to have, he and his partner can't all because of some homophobe with a bible.. it doesn't seem like much to you because you have lost nothing, but Howie and other gays have never had the same rights as you. Snooping and gov't lying are huge issues.. but being the year 2013 and certain people not having the same civil rights that you have is just as huge. Think about it from their POV and maybe you'll quit snubbing this issue like it's meaningless..

abortion the same thing. Of course you don't want to be bugged by a rogue gov't.. well, how would like that same gov't to force you to carry the child of your rapist all because their sunday school teacher told them dinosaurs lived with man and God would be unhappy if you remove the womb-jelly before it's time come out on it's own.. IMO that's a pretty big fucking right to be taking away from someone, the ability to make their own medical decisions without some nut-job they've never met, on a political high dictating what he thinks she should do.. not very meaningless at all.

as for guns.. you mention 'probable cause'.. well, you care about the 4th as much as some care about the 2nd..

again, these are not lesser arguments just because they aren't your issues.. they do mean alot to those that they affect..

[Howey]

*like*

But...that's not my point, either. The Obama administration isn't hell bent on spying on every American. That's the product of journalists who feel privy to everything. And I'm dead serious in my comparison of the paranoia in our nation today compared to the McCarthy era. That scares me far more than a low level CIA agent reading my nonsensical emails. Which isn't happening.

[ekg]

*like*

But...that's not my point, either. The Obama administration isn't hell bent on spying on every American. That's the product of journalists who feel privy to everything. And I'm dead serious in my comparison of the paranoia in our nation today compared to the McCarthy era. That scares me far more than a low level CIA agent reading my nonsensical emails. Which isn't happening.

I disagree partly. No gov't, including Obama's should be spying.. and when caught lying about it the way they've been... well, heads should roll somewhere along the way. Nutty is exactly right in his anger over this issue. We have a right to privacy in this country, we have the right to slam the door in the face of the police that show up at our door for no reason asking to come in, we have a right to turn around and walk away when stopped for no reason on the streets and questioned by police-stop and frisk is a blatant violation of the law. we have a right to drive thru any state in the country without having to produce our 'papers' all because we may be tanner than the next guy.. and we have the right to have a conversation about bombs or anything else we want on the telephone without black SUV's coming to our houses to investigate us..

Obama is just as bad as Bush was and in some case worse because the tech is better for him than it was for Bush.

and don't forget, the next guy in office could easily be Ted Cruz, are you happy with allowing him the same spying power that we've ignored under Obama? Are you ok with the amounts of new 'tech' his presidency would see and use? if that doesn't scare you then you're not taking it seriously enough..

not that your assessment on the media freaking out is wrong because it's not and they are.. but there is a major issue here that shouldn't be ignored...  the same way those other issues (gay/abortion/guns) shouldn't be ignored either..

[betteroffhere]

headline reads...

Individuals rights do not supersede the governments rights...

to protect the greater interests or goods of the entity, which makes possible,

the allowed rights of the individuals at any and all given times.

[44nutman]

The reason I use those 3 issues, is because they are wedge issues. You are not going to change anyones mind on those issues. Some of the GOP is backing off the gay issue because it is a loser(because a majority of people under 40 don't give a fuck if someone is gay or not. That age group, typically know someone who is gay and thinks they should have the same rights as everyone else. ), but that is purely political and in a few cases, someone close to them is gay and has changed their mind.
I feel we spend too much time on shit, that people will never change their mind.

[betteroffhere]

To change minds, one must change the conditioning...of the peoples, whos minds you wish changed


until then...it will remain status quo

[ekg]

The reason I use those 3 issues, is because they are wedge issues. You are not going to change anyones mind on those issues. Some of the GOP is backing off the gay issue because it is a loser(because a majority of people under 40 don't give a fuck if someone is gay or not. That age group, typically know someone who is gay and thinks they should have the same rights as everyone else. ), but that is purely political and in a few cases, someone close to them is gay and has changed their mind.
I feel we spend too much time on shit, that people will never change their mind.

you're right that you'll never change their minds, but they are also the only issues where we can change the laws..


wiretapping/Fisa court/spying... nah, those we can't change. once that gate was opened.. once the technology grew faster than the laws... there was no stopping it.. there still isn't. what they ban today will be old tech tomorrow anyway..

honestly, do you think even Ted, Zero Gov't, Mr. Libertarian, Cruz himself wouldn't use FISA or go around it were he president?

of course he would.. the 1st president who doesn't, and has another 9/11 on his hands, will be tried for treason and they all know it.. so yeah, they're going to break every amendment they can find if they think it'll keep them in office..



maybe the freaks back in the day with the tin foil helmets had the right ideas.. LOL