The Assault on Public Schools

[Howey]

Funny...now even the word "public" has become a dirty word. They've led the charge against public teachers, public firefighters, public policemen, and now the public school system.

Don't the republicans realize they're what's wrong with our schools?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20110323/us_nm/us_iowa_1

Three potential 2012 Republican presidential candidates expressed hostility toward the public school system at a home schooling rally on Wednesday in the early presidential caucus state of Iowa.

Texas Congressman Ron Paul told the crowd government wants "absolute control" of the "indoctrination" of children. Paul spoke along with Minnesota Congresswoman Michele Bachmann and Georgia businessman Herman Cain.

"The public school system now is a propaganda machine," Paul said, prompting applause from the crowd of hundreds of home schooling families. "They start with our kids even in kindergarten, teaching them about family values, sexual education, gun rights, environmentalism - and they condition them to believe in so much which is totally un-American."

Bachmann said home schooling is the "essence" of freedom and liberty. "It's about knowing our children better than the state knows our children," she said.

Bachmann, who home-schooled her five biological children, lamented that she and her husband had been unable to teach the 23 foster children who have lived in their home because Minnesota authorities said foster children could not be home-schooled.

"It is not up to a bureaucrat to decide what is best for your children," Bachmann said, drawing cheers from the crowd. "I am so tired of the establishment telling us that they know best. We know best."

Cain, former chief executive of Godfather's Pizza and another prospective Republican candidate, denounced government involvement in education at all levels.

"That's all we want is for government to get out of the way so we can educate ourselves and our children the old-fashioned way," Cain said.

Justin LaVan of the Network of Iowa Christian Home Educators said it was encouraging to see potential presidential candidates talking about the home-schooling movement.

"More importantly, talking about our Creator - our rights that came from our Creator, acknowledging that and giving him the glory, folks," said LaVan, who served as master of ceremonies at the rally.

[clc]

Cant say I disagree... a solid homeschool education is almost always going to better than a substandard public school education, even more so if the family is using an established curriculum.

The public schools are damaged - bloated budgets, underpaid stafffing, lack of resources, overcrowding, and dangerous for safety.

Parents have the right to educate their children, at home if they want to. We plan homeschooling two of the three this upcoming year.

[Howey]

Cant say I disagree... a solid homeschool education is almost always going to better than a substandard public school education, even more so if the family is using an established curriculum.

The public schools are damaged - bloated budgets, underpaid stafffing, lack of resources, overcrowding, and dangerous for safety.

Parents have the right to educate their children, at home if they want to. We plan homeschooling two of the three this upcoming year.

I knew your position on this, Puffy.

Also, a big fuck you for hating on homeschoolers. There's one in my house right now, playing Wii before bedtime.

Guess what dude? It's America. And fundamentalist Christians are allowed to homeschool their children. You may disagree with it, but it's their choice to teach their children what they wish. If you want to rant about that, there's a whole section devoted to it here. This thread, and this topic in particular, has nothing to do with it.

There's nothing wrong with homeschooling as long as it uses, as you said, an "established curriculum".

But what originally got me going on home schooling, courtesy of lilMike:

There was a discussion about this elsewhere...

Things must be getting rough over there.  First Ayaan Hirsi Ali, and now this.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/01/26/AR2010012603298.html

German homeschoolers granted political asylum

A German couple who fled to Tennessee so they could homeschool their children was granted political asylum Tuesday by a U.S. immigration judge, according to the legal group that represented them.

The decision clears the way for Uwe Romeike (roh-MY-kee), his wife and five children to stay in Morristown, Tenn., where they have been living since 2008. Romeike says his family was persecuted for their evangelical Christian beliefs and for homeschooling their children in Germany, where school attendance is compulsory.

An attempt was made to further discuss the issue:

There may be a fundamentalist muslim trend towards protecting their beliefs against others but would it also be fair that (today in our country) there's another fundamentalist christian trend towards protecting their beliefs?

Which is better? I'd like to hope neither. Extremism on both sides is wrong. I found this article which is interesting.

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/New_World_Order/Gods_Warrior_Twins.html

"With striking similarity, James Dobson, former professor of pediatrics and a popular conservative Christian voice heard by millions, summed up the Christian fundamentalist mindset in Children at Risk. "Those who control what young people are taught, and what they experience-what they see, hear, think, and believe-will determine the future course for the nation," he predicted. In the US, that is accomplished by home schooling or sending children to ultra-conservative Christian schools, where socializing that might open doors to critical thought is limited. The key concept of fundamentalist education is controlling what children learn."

Isn't that just as scary? More so because it's going on in our country?

See, I'm a teacher [Ok. So DaveInPo (hmmm...what do you get when you add a "rt" to the end of that?   lied on that one] and see everyday children repeating things their parents say and it (as I said above) scares me a lot more than some barbaric practice performed in third world and some muslim countries.

That's why I brought up the obvious comparison between radical muslims (who you are obviously targeting regardless of your claims otherwise) and radical christians.

There definitely is a comparison between muslims mutilating their children over mistaken ideologies and christians who hammer hate into their kid's heads over the same thing. Sometimes, I've seen the physical abuse of children equal to or greater than this. As I said it's far more troubling to me to see kids brainwashed with hatred of others. My job is to teach kids reason. It's hard to do when you see this [New videos]:







It's even sadder when children are removed from the social settings of a school and homeschooled to accomplish this goal.

Remember, Puffy, I have no problem with homeschooling, per se. I do have a problem with homeschooling associated with an agenda other than teaching children. 'Cuz that's what it should be about.  

As far as Mike's German family, there's a lot more to that than meets the eye. Research it.

[clc]

I stand by what I said--You can't tell a family they can't teach their religious beliefs in their own home, you simply can't. It's a such a gross violation of civil rights, and there is no more OBVIOUS separation of church and state than religious homeschooling.

So what would you propose we do? Ban evangelical homeschooling?

I don't agree with what was being taught in that first video, but our homeschooling curriculum is Catholic--we picked it specifically because A) it's far more academically challenging and competitive than the public school B) it allows us to custom-tailor the curriculum C) it's accredited and D) it fits our religious beliefs

Public school is a waste of time. A child is gonna sit through 8 hours a day and get MAYBE 2 1/2 hours of actual educational time. I can take one morning--from 8 to 12--and get every subject out the way of the day, and that leaves us the entire afternoon free for dance practice, voice lessons, playground, pool time, the beach, trips to Disney, etc. And this curriculum isn't easy... I fully expect our middle daughter to have huge issues with it if we place her in the 2nd grade track like she would be in public school in the fall.

I mean, I'm a teacher--I have taught typical and a-typical kids, I've taught in public school and private school, and there's no way I plan on letting them go to public school anymore. I've seen first hand what a waste of a day it is.

[clc]

You don't want Christanity taught in the public schools, obvious--especially a particularly branded and bigoted version of it...so let them do it at home.

[ekg]

 I can take one morning--from 8 to 12--and get every subject out the way of the day, and that leaves us the entire afternoon free for dance practice, voice lessons, playground, pool time, the beach, trips to Disney, etc.

how many parents do you think are actually doing that though? especially if both parents work? What's the kid left doing all day while the parents are away?

and you're a smart person.. would you want.. iceman doing the same for his kid? or some other intellectual and social idiot doing it for theirs?

and what about social skills? Learning how to interact with people you hate and like, having to learn discipline and structure from teachers you don't like but learn you have to respect them anyway, learning to form friendships and end them,trust and not trust,learning to be mortified because you have a pimple and you have to give a speech before the class on the same day but getting over it and doing it? Finding that 'love' and then going thru the heartbreak when it ends.. what about football games,proms,pep-rallies..


if we're going to make teachers get tested before they can teach? should we make parents also get tested?

I've watched two pretty decent kids get pulled out of school and 'home schooled' by lazy and ignorant parents.. one of them really did have a great chance. she was an introvert, but very science oriented.. she was just way to sheltered and shy and couldn't handle school.. so they pulled her out.. she's pretty much agoraphobic now and since her mom didn't really spend the time to teach her anything, she's lost any hope of becoming 'something'

the other was a good kid who went 'bad' because his parents were extremely lax. so when he lost the boundaries and structure of school, he did nothing but wander the neighborhood all day until the other kids got home.. but at 11/12.. wandering a not so great neighborhood to begin with, he turned into a little sexual,druggie, criminal..

I don't really know what the answer is since both options have the 'bad'..  and I understand the idea behind home school and don't really have much a problem with the 'education' part of it...it's all the rest, the other experiences that I wouldn't give up or take away from my kids if you paid me.. I can help them to become better with their education while they are in a 'decent' school.. but I can't help them learn and form all those other life-skills that can only be learned in jr and sr high school..  I can't give them a prom night, or jr. high school champion football game.. Those memories are too dear for me to want to take them from my kids..

[Howey]

I stand by what I said--You can't tell a family they can't teach their religious beliefs in their own home, you simply can't. It's a such a gross violation of civil rights, and there is no more OBVIOUS separation of church and state than religious homeschooling.

So what would you propose we do? Ban evangelical homeschooling?

Puffy: You're taking this personally. You shouldn't. I trust your beliefs and your teaching skills.

You don't want Christanity taught in the public schools, obvious--especially a particularly branded and bigoted version of it...so let them do it at home.

Is that education? No...that's exactly what the silly politicians above are preaching for while preaching against (think about that) - it's indoctrination. Not teaching.

As a teacher, you know how malleable children are. You know they put their trust in the authority figures of their lifes, their parents, their teachers, and (maybe) their clergy. The parents are, or should be, there to teach the children what's right and wrong, as are the clergy who should also instill in the child a sense of love for their fellow man and faith; whereas the teacher is there to teach them about what's outside the home environment and hopefully help them obtain the skills necessary to survive outside the home environment once they get older.

Religion? Why do you think religious subjects aren't taught until one gets to the university level at which time their psyche will be able to make their own decisions regarding it and the faith that accompanies it?

"Teaching" a child to hate gays, or hate Muslims, or hate blacks, or hate hispanics, or hate anyone who doesn't think the same way Mommy and Daddy do is not what "teaching" is about. "Teaching" a child to believe that global warming is a fallacy, or that the earth has only been around for six hundred years, isn't "teaching" either. It's pushing an agenda.

And that's what these particular homeschoolers do.

They are the ones I take issue with. Not you or any other homeschooler who provides their child with a rounded education to prepare them for life outside the home.

[Howey]

The public schools are damaged - bloated budgets, underpaid stafffing, lack of resources, overcrowding, and dangerous for safety.

Public school is a waste of time. A child is gonna sit through 8 hours a day and get MAYBE 2 1/2 hours of actual educational time.

Puffy. You're young. Aside from the fact that you're intelligent, well-rounded (no, not that way!), a fine mother and guardian, don't you see that you're a product of the public school system you so vehemently dislike?

Why do you think the public schools are damaged, have bloated budgets, underpaid staffing, lack of resources, overcrowded, and are dangerous? It's not the fault of the schools, it's the fault of the bureaucrats and political cronies appointed and elected at the state level who are more concerned with the bottom line than an education. It's the fault of these same people taking the emphasis of education away from the child and into performance, performance, performance! It's the fault of these same people who promise lottery money and pull financial magic taking it right away, it's the fault of these same people who disrespect our teachers whose one goal is to teach!

Let me tell you this. I'm the product of what could easily be considered socialized education. The DOD school system. Government education at it's best. The finest teachers at a competitive salary, the latest educational materials at hand, and extracurricular activites bar none. All of this in Germany!

When we came to the States, to the southern educational system, I was in the last few months of my junior year. The level of education I had received was so far above what kids were getting down here, I had no courses to take! I enrolled in college-level courses which were still behind senior year courses in Germany.

Whose fault is that?

[Howey]

if we're going to make teachers get tested before they can teach? should we make parents also get tested?
 

OH NO!

Don't tread on me!

Don't let the government intrude!

and you're a smart person.. would you want.. iceman doing the same for his kid?

**shudder**

All those big words and that one little phrase proves my point. Sheesh!

[clc]

It doesn't really matter whose fault it is to me... the end result is the same. Why would I put my kids into a broken system?

The quality of education that I got 15-odd years ago is different from what iis available now. I was in all day gifted programs, in a mixed age group class, with two passionate teachers who didn't teach like the others. Gifted was a great experience for me, and I have no doubt our youngest would do great in it....but its not around anymore. it was terminated as a program two years after I moved out of the county.

FCAT is total bullshit. I will make sure none of my kids have an education that revolves around it.

[uselesslegs]

It doesn't really matter whose fault it is to me... the end result is the same. Why would I put my kids into a broken system?

The quality of education that I got 15-odd years ago is different from what iis available now. I was in all day gifted programs, in a mixed age group class, with two passionate teachers who didn't teach like the others. Gifted was a great experience for me, and I have no doubt our youngest would do great in it....but its not around anymore. it was terminated as a program two years after I moved out of the county.

FCAT is total bullshit. I will make sure none of my kids have an education that revolves around it.

FCAT  is bullshit.  It's repetitious crap that doesn't promote critical or logical thinking.  It also removes a well rounded education from the table because a teacher is forced to spend so much time preparing the kids for something that will have so little impact on their abilities outside of school.  I can remember all kinds of routes one could take in school that were available because educators (prior to bureaucracy taking over completely) knew no two kids were alike.  Different avenues were there...ready to enhance, cater to, and help a child explore paths that perhaps they weren't even aware of.

Vocational, higher learning, jobs programs, arts, ect., ect.  When you rubber stamp education, you're eliminating or terribly stalling a child's potential...because there is no one set "mold" that extracts and demands the best of ALL students.  It's pure fantasy.

[lil mike]

Puffy. You're young. Aside from the fact that you're intelligent, well-rounded (no, not that way!), a fine mother and guardian, don't you see that you're a product of the public school system you so vehemently dislike?

Why do you think the public schools are damaged, have bloated budgets, underpaid staffing, lack of resources, overcrowded, and are dangerous? It's not the fault of the schools, it's the fault of the bureaucrats and political cronies appointed and elected at the state level who are more concerned with the bottom line than an education. It's the fault of these same people taking the emphasis of education away from the child and into performance, performance, performance! It's the fault of these same people who promise lottery money and pull financial magic taking it right away, it's the fault of these same people who disrespect our teachers whose one goal is to teach!

You know, you're half way there. 

[lil mike]

FCAT  is bullshit.  It's repetitious crap that doesn't promote critical or logical thinking.  It also removes a well rounded education from the table because a teacher is forced to spend so much time preparing the kids for something that will have so little impact on their abilities outside of school.  I can remember all kinds of routes one could take in school that were available because educators (prior to bureaucracy taking over completely) knew no two kids were alike.  Different avenues were there...ready to enhance, cater to, and help a child explore paths that perhaps they weren't even aware of.

Vocational, higher learning, jobs programs, arts, ect., ect.  When you rubber stamp education, you're eliminating or terribly stalling a child's potential...because there is no one set "mold" that extracts and demands the best of ALL students.  It's pure fantasy.

I realize I'm in the minorty on this, but I support the FCAT.  Not because I think it's super great, but because it's better than what we had before, which was nothing.  As crappy as Florida schools are, they used to be so much worse.  We used to have a lot of high school graduates who left school with shiny new diplomas and couldn't read.  That problem has been cut way down.

Does it promote critical thinking?  No.

Does it promote logical thinking?  No.

What it does is force schools (and they needed to be forced) to prepare kids for the basics.  The bare minimum of what we should expect from public schools.  It's not like Florida schools were paragons of the teaching of critical & logical thinking skills before the FCAT.  The difference is now, we can at least expect kids to have basic reading and math skills when they graduate.  You could argue that's not much, and you'd be right, but it is an improvement.