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War In Libya (It's Real Now, Nutty!)

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Howey
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« Reply #45 on: March 27, 2011, 07:14:03 pm »

It's kind of hard to take him at his word, but the Europeans have been more than willing to hold a dollar from Mid-East dictators in the past.



I don't believe that or the thousands of other claims they've put out...
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« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2011, 09:31:32 am »

Looks like the USA is on the same side as Al Quada. That is awesome!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8407047/Libyan-rebel-commander-admits-his-fighters-have-al-Qaeda-links.html


You want to stop the deficit, bring everyone home. I thought that is what Obama promised now we are up to 3 countries. Maybe we can invade the world.
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« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2011, 10:04:15 am »

Looks like the USA is on the same side as Al Quada. That is awesome!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8407047/Libyan-rebel-commander-admits-his-fighters-have-al-Qaeda-links.html


You want to stop the deficit, bring everyone home. I thought that is what Obama promised now we are up to 3 countries. Maybe we can invade the world.

I was wondering about this the other day. There's no distinct opposition leader in Libya, it's a tribal based society. Where's the ex-pats out there willing to lead the country?
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« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2011, 05:06:45 pm »

I don't believe that or the thousands of other claims they've put out...


I did say it's hard to take him at his word, but France does have a history with Libya.

That makes it hard to understand their politics, because I don't know who is paying who.  In the 80's when we attacked Libya, France refused to allow us to overfly their territory and opposed the strike.  That was when Ghaddafi was King Terrorist.

Now that he's put aside his terrorist ways, France led the charge to attack and interfere with their civil war.

I'm not following how any of that makes sense unless someone(s) on the take.
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« Reply #49 on: March 30, 2011, 06:45:47 pm »



Jadaliyya Interview with Ali Ahmida

This is an expert on Libya. It's just a starting point but a good way to get context. There is a new interview with him at TRNN. Something being a blog doesn't necessarily make it any less trustworthy as is certainly the case with the above. Some of his credentials below:

Quote
BIDDEFORD, Maine — The University of New England College of Arts and Sciences has announced that the 2010-2011 Ludcke Chair of Liberal Arts and Sciences has been awarded to Professor Ali Abdullatif Ahmida, Ph.D. 

The Ludcke Chair, funded by a generous bequest from the estate of Eleanor Ludcke (Westbrook College class of 1926), is presented annually to a tenured member of the faculty of the College of Arts and Sciences in recognition of their outstanding academic accomplishments.
The Ludcke Chair recipient receives a stipend in support of their development as a teacher and scholar and gives a public lecture in early December, followed by a reception.
The chair holder must have attained the ideal of the “teacher/scholar,” a dedicated educator and productive researcher who has given generously of their time to the University of New England over a significant period. Professor Ahmida is the chair of the Political Science Department and an internationally recognized scholar of North African history and politics.

Professor Ahmida was born in Libya and educated at Cairo University in Egypt and the University of Washington in Seattle. His specialty is political theory, comparative politics, and historical sociology of power, agency and anti-colonial resistance in North Africa, especially modern Libya.

He has published major articles in Critique, Arab Future, and International Journal of Islamic and Arabic Studies.
He is also the author of The Making of Modern Libya: State Formation, Colonialization and Resistance (State of New York University Press, 1994). This book has been translated into Arabic and was published in a second edition by the Center of Arab Unity Studies (1998, Beirut, Lebanon).
His 2005 book, Forgotten Voices: Power and Agency in Colonial and Postcolonial Libya (Routledge Press) was also translated and issued in Italian and most recently in 2009 in Arabic by the Center of Arab Unity Studies, Beirut.

Professor Ahmida is the editor of Beyond Colonialism and Nationalism in the Maghrib: History, Culture and Politics (Palgrave, 2000). He has also recently published Bridges Across the Sahara: Social, Economic and Cultural Impact of the Trans-Sahara Trade during the 19th and 20th Centuries (Cambridge Scholars Publishing, 2009); and Post-Orientalism: Critical Reviews in North African Social and Cultural History (published in Arabic by the Center of Arab Unity Studies, Beirut, Lebanon 2009)

He has lectured in a variety of U.S., Canadian, European and African universities and colleges, and has contributed several book reviews, articles and chapters to books on the African state, identity and alienation, class and state formation in modern Libya.

Professor Ahmida has received many academic grants and awards, including a Social Science Research Council National Grant Award, the Shahade Award, and the 2003 Kenneally Cup Award for distinguished academic service at the University of New England. Professor Ahmida is the third recipient of the Ludcke Chair.  Elizabeth De Wolfe, professor of History, was awarded the first Ludcke Chair in 2008-2009. Stephan Zeeman, professor of Marine Science, held the Ludcke Chair in 2009-2010.
(News release posted May 28, 2010)
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lil mike
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« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2011, 02:25:35 pm »

That didn't take long.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/07/501364/main20051760.shtml#ixzz1IrtMwlxl

General: U.S. may consider troops in Libya


The United States may consider sending troops into Libya with a possible international ground force that could aid the rebels, according to the general who led the military mission until NATO took over.


Army Gen. Carter Ham also told lawmakers Thursday that added American participation would not be ideal, and ground troops could erode the international coalition and make it more difficult to get Arab support for operations in Libya.


Ham said the operation was largely stalemated now and was more likely to remain that way since America has transferred control to NATO.

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« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2011, 02:39:52 pm »

That didn't take long.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/04/07/501364/main20051760.shtml#ixzz1IrtMwlxl

General: U.S. may consider troops in Libya


The United States may consider sending troops into Libya with a possible international ground force that could aid the rebels, according to the general who led the military mission until NATO took over.


Army Gen. Carter Ham also told lawmakers Thursday that added American participation would not be ideal, and ground troops could erode the international coalition and make it more difficult to get Arab support for operations in Libya.


Ham said the operation was largely stalemated now and was more likely to remain that way since America has transferred control to NATO.



Good.

http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474979201339


Quote
There are fierce battles in Misrata as the rebels fight against Gaddafi’s forces. The town is under siege. UNICEF reports that Gaddafi’s militia is shooting children to death, notes the Bellingham Herald.

A spokesperson for UNICEF said the organization has “reliable and consistent reports of children being among the people targeted by snipers in Misrata.” Gaddafi has the blood of children on his hands. His troops are committing war crimes. It is horrific that Gaddafi has had control of Libya for so long. When will his reign of terror end?

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« Reply #52 on: April 15, 2011, 08:56:05 pm »

Send In The Troops!

Quote
Military forces loyal to Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi have been firing into residential neighborhoods in this embattled city with heavy weapons, including cluster bombs that have been banned by much of the world and ground-to-ground rockets, according to witnesses and survivors, as well as physical evidence.

Both of these so-called “indiscriminate” weapons, which strike large areas with a dense succession of high-explosive munitions, by their nature cannot be fired precisely. When fired into populated areas they place civilians at grave risk.

The dangers were evident beside one of the impact craters on Friday, where eight people had been killed while standing in a bread line. Where a crowd had assembled for food, bits of human flesh had been blasted against a cinder block wall.

The use of such weapons in these ways could add urgency to the arguments by Britain and France that the alliance needs to step up attacks on the Qaddafi forces, to better fulfill the United Nations mandate to protect civilians.
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« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2011, 03:37:07 pm »

Are you seriously wanting to send in the troops?

Well go big or go home, at least according to Stern.

http://sharpelbowsstl.blogspot.com/2011/04/howard-stern-libya-situation.html
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« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2011, 09:50:46 pm »

With U.S. in support role, NATO's Libya mission 'going in circles'
Kadafi's forces have been able to intensify their counteroffensive while NATO members don't appear willing to escalate their intervention.
By David S. Cloud and Ned Parker, Los Angeles Times
April 18, 2011, 7:24 p.m.


Quote
Reporting from Washington and Benghazi, Libya— A month ago in Libya, troops loyal to Moammar Kadafi were advancing on opposition-held areas, tens of thousands of civilians feared for their lives, and rebel forces appeared in disarray with little prospect of driving Kadafi from power.

After four weeks and hundreds of airstrikes by the U.S. and its NATO allies, in many ways little has changed.

Kadafi's tanks and artillery no longer threaten the de facto rebel capital of Benghazi in eastern Libya, and Kadafi's combat aircraft and helicopter gunships are grounded. But the disorganized rebel forces are still outmatched and outnumbered by Libyan army units, which, along with their leader, show no sign of giving up.

Rather, Kadafi has intensified his counteroffensive in recent days. Human rights groups accused Kadafi's military of using cluster bombs and truck-mounted Grad rockets to bombard residential areas of Misurata, the only city in western Libya still in rebel hands.

"We rushed into this without a plan," said David Barno, a retired Army general who once commanded U.S. and NATO forces in Afghanistan. "Now we're out in the middle, going in circles."

The failure of the international air campaign to force Kadafi's ouster, or even to stop his military from shelling civilians and recapturing rebel-held towns, poses a growing quandary for President Obama and other NATO leaders: What now?

Privately, U.S. officials concede that some of their assumptions before they intervened in the Libyan conflict may have been faulty. Among them was the notion that air power alone would degrade Kadafi's military to the point where he would be forced to halt his attacks, and that the U.S. could leave the airstrikes primarily to warplanes from Britain, France and other European countries.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy and British Prime Minister David Cameron, who led the charge within NATO to launch the air campaign in Libya, argued last week that the alliance needed to step up its attacks to fulfill the United Nations mandate to protect civilians. But winning agreement to escalate the intervention could further divide the already badly split alliance.

The U.S. military moved into a support role early this month, and Obama has given no indication that he will send U.S. warplanes into combat missions again, let alone reconsider his promise not to use ground troops in Libya.*

His decision to intervene in Libya was not popular at the Pentagon, where Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates and top uniformed officers have shown little interest in taking a major role in the conflict while they are fighting the war in Afghanistan. Obama managed to overcome his advisors' objections by promising to keep the U.S. role limited.

If the alliance's most powerful member isn't willing to escalate, few other members will be eager to do so.

But the longer Kadafi holds up under the NATO attacks, the more pressure there will be in Washington and European capitals to deal with him by escalating the military campaign, arming the rebels or ratcheting up sanctions and other indirect measures, in hopes of forcing him from power.

Adm. James Stavridis, the U.S. commander of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization, has appealed to NATO members for additional attack planes — a request that U.S. officials made clear that other alliance members would have to meet.

Obama's decision to limit the U.S. military role left NATO without A-10 Thunderbolt II or AC-130 Spectre gunships, U.S. planes that are designed for close air support of ground troops and precise attacks against ground targets.

The U.S. is keeping A-10s and other strike aircraft on standby in case of an emergency. But bringing the planes back into the fight is not under consideration, a NATO officer said.

Still, the air campaign clearly has weakened Kadafi's army. Allied airstrikes have destroyed nearly 40% of Libya's military equipment and headquarters facilities, according to a senior U.S. military official.

With a maritime exclusion zone preventing Kadafi from obtaining supplies by sea, there also are signs that his government is struggling to provide ammunition, transportation and food to troops in the field. They include the 32nd Brigade, an elite unit led by Kadafi's youngest son, Khamis, and a prime target of airstrikes, the U.S. official said.

Kadafi's long-term prospects for staying in power are not good, U.S. officials insist. They cite the defection of several top aides, including his former intelligence chief, and the loss of billions of dollars in oil revenue that he once used to help ensure loyalty in a tribal-based society.

But those gains have not shifted the balance of military power.

The motley rebel forces that emerged in mid-February to challenge Kadafi's 41-year rule have proved inept on the battlefield. Nor have Kadafi's military commanders or key units defected to the rebel side, as some European officials had hoped.

"We do believe he is having some trouble in being able to mount a sustained campaign," said the U.S. official, speaking anonymously because he was discussing intelligence estimates. "That said, he is still much better organized than the rebels and still has the upper hand."

In some ways, Kadafi's forces have proved surprisingly adept. Instead of using armored troop carriers that attract attention from surveillance aircraft, they have camouflaged troop movements by relying on the same kind of battered pickup trucks that the rebels use, even disguising the vehicles with the opposition flag.

The concealment tactic on the ever-shifting front lines allowed Libyan army units to advance to the eastern city of Ajdabiya recently before they were beaten back for the third time by rebel troops and NATO air attacks. Yet again on Sunday, rebels in Ajdabiya came under attack from Kadafi's rocket-firing forces.

"We expected Kadafi to quickly fold his tent and go somewhere else," said Barno, a senior fellow at the Center for a New American Security, a Washington-based think tank. "But the Libyan forces quickly adapted to the airstrikes by becoming very quickly like civilians."

No one seems certain how to break the stalemate. Ratcheting down the NATO-led air campaign while large segments of Kadafi's military remain intact would leave the rebels vulnerable to being slaughtered.

The Air Force is flying two Predator drones over Libya to help conduct surveillance, but they are unarmed, officials said. The U.S. also is transferring precision-guided bombs to NATO allies flying combat missions, since supplies have begun running short, the NATO officer said.

The last time the United States undertook an air war largely for humanitarian purposes was during the 1999 NATO campaign in Kosovo, the Serbian province where police and soldiers loyal to Yugoslav leader Slobodan Milosevic were carrying out a ruthless assault on ethnic Albanians.

Clinton administration officials expected Milosevic to surrender quickly after NATO launched airstrikes, but the bombing campaign lasted 78 days. The Clinton White House promised early on not to send U.S. ground troops into Kosovo, but critics said that appeared to embolden Milosevic to resist.

Unlike the conflict in Libya, however, U.S. warplanes conducted the vast majority of the airstrikes during the Kosovo campaign and gradually escalated the bombing. U.S. officials even threatened at one point to begin flying attack helicopters, and Milosevic ultimately buckled.

There has been little sign that NATO is considering — or even capable of — that kind of escalation in Libya as long as the U.S. stays in a supporting role.

"By the U.S. taking a back-seat role, it has a psychological effect on the mission," said Dan Fata, a former Defense Department official who was responsible for overseeing NATO issues during the George W. Bush administration. "If I'm Kadafi, I'm thinking I can probably wait the Europeans out."

david.cloud@latimes.com
Commits to drones 3 days later
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-gates-libya-20110422,0,6275441.story

US Allies With Al Qaeda In Libya
http://www.redstate.com/streiff/2011/03/27/us-allies-with-al-qaeda-in-libya/

Libyan  ground forces degraded by up to 40 percent: U.S. 
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/22/us-libya-usa-military-idUSTRE73L3FH20110422

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/opinionla/la-ed-libya-20110423,0,4363408.story

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lil mike
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« Reply #55 on: May 01, 2011, 06:04:18 pm »

This is the kind of story that would have been big news oh... about 2 1/2 years ago.  Now, not so much.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/libya-disabled-children-school-hit-nato-strike-201036691.html

Libya disabled children school hit in NATO strike


Shattered glass litters the carpet at the Libyan Down's Syndrome Society, and dust covers pictures of grinning children that adorn the hallway, thrown into darkness by a NATO strike early on Saturday.

It was unclear what the target of the strike was, though Libyan officials said it was Muammar Gaddafi himself, who was giving a live television address at the time.

"They maybe wanted to hit the television. This is a non-military, non-governmental building," said Mohammed al-Mehdi, head of the civil societies council, which licenses and oversees civil groups in Libya.

The missile completely destroyed an adjoining office in the compound that houses the government's commission for children.

The force of the blast blew in windows and doors in the parent-funded school for children with Down's Syndrome and officials said it damaged an orphanage on the floor above.

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« Reply #56 on: May 01, 2011, 08:30:19 pm »

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #57 on: May 01, 2011, 09:06:06 pm »

This is the kind of story that would have been big news oh... about 2 1/2 years ago.  Now, not so much.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/libya-disabled-children-school-hit-nato-strike-201036691.html

Libya disabled children school hit in NATO strike


Shattered glass litters the carpet at the Libyan Down's Syndrome Society, and dust covers pictures of grinning children that adorn the hallway, thrown into darkness by a NATO strike early on Saturday.

It was unclear what the target of the strike was, though Libyan officials said it was Muammar Gaddafi himself, who was giving a live television address at the time.

"They maybe wanted to hit the television. This is a non-military, non-governmental building," said Mohammed al-Mehdi, head of the civil societies council, which licenses and oversees civil groups in Libya.

The missile completely destroyed an adjoining office in the compound that houses the government's commission for children.

The force of the blast blew in windows and doors in the parent-funded school for children with Down's Syndrome and officials said it damaged an orphanage on the floor above.


So do we actually have common ground on Libya? A man who the US was very friendly to during his reign, giving him roughly 70 billion in aid over his time. As dictator's go, he seems like a pretty good one. He was building infrastructure for his people with the money as well as bringing in water through a very expensive operation.

This is unfortunately happening right now and recent history can't be muddled as the mainstream so often does without giving all the details and asking the right questions. If we could keep it on just the issue of our forces going into a sovereign country which posed no threat to us or it's neighbors and not project any agenda onto the other it would be beneficial.

I believe one of the strong rationalizations was that he was going to bomb or did bomb a particular bunch of the resistance and/or innocent people and that it couldn't be allowed. Obviously I hate people being killed but it's not a justification that holds any water:

Because A. We don't do it in Africa where people are constant victims of genocide and

B. That's not what the US Armed Forces mission is in the world.
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« Reply #58 on: May 02, 2011, 08:23:38 am »

So do we actually have common ground on Libya? A man who the US was very friendly to during his reign, giving him roughly 70 billion in aid over his time. As dictator's go, he seems like a pretty good one. He was building infrastructure for his people with the money as well as bringing in water through a very expensive operation.

This is unfortunately happening right now and recent history can't be muddled as the mainstream so often does without giving all the details and asking the right questions. If we could keep it on just the issue of our forces going into a sovereign country which posed no threat to us or it's neighbors and not project any agenda onto the other it would be beneficial.

I believe one of the strong rationalizations was that he was going to bomb or did bomb a particular bunch of the resistance and/or innocent people and that it couldn't be allowed. Obviously I hate people being killed but it's not a justification that holds any water:

Because A. We don't do it in Africa where people are constant victims of genocide and

B. That's not what the US Armed Forces mission is in the world.

a) we don't have oil interests in africa
b)sometimes it is..

it's glib to say 'it's for oil' but we do get a some oil of it from Libya..   and in Africa, I just don't see any way to end it even with our intrusion..

I'm sure Obama and the rest would have been happy to let it all play out on it's own like it has everywhere else in the Mid-east where the people are rising up.. but this time Ghadaffi threatened to kill everyone in sight and the mid-east leaders believed him and asked for our assistance..

there was no good response..

think about it... Obama is literally damned with either choice he makes... Don't get involved and watch 1000's and maybe even 10's of 1000's slaughtered ... for which he would be supremely vilified for and blamed

or

do what can minimally be done and get blamed for using the US military here instead of there..

I can only assume he made the choice that would let him sleep at night.

this is why he was elected.. to make these choices. He made it, it's working out OK so far.. let's see how it eventually plays out.

what choice would you have made?
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« Reply #59 on: May 02, 2011, 08:28:23 am »

Ghadaffi's been known for using women and children as shields to cover his own ass.
Ghadaffi's been known to shoot at and kill women and children willy-nilly.

Why am I concerned a strike blew out windows of some home for kids?

I'm not. Take him out.
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