The Other 99%

[lil mike]

no, I don't believe you would love it, in fact I don't know that you can. You had the perfect opp to do so and chose to level invalid charges at me for my valid bitch with the tea-party, even after I listed my complaints and even said I was in the habit of doing exactly what you were doing but was trying to get out of it and offered you my hand so we could both get up out of the shit... and then, I don't watch the Ed Show so I don't know your reference but knowing where you're at right now, you throw what I know was not a compliment.. so No, I don't think you would love to talk about any issue unless it's been buried under 3ft of shit and distorted beyond any recognition..

but maybe you'll learn to love it again..

so, I'll put the hand out there again and go 1st.. what's your real beef with the protestors.. not the pot-heads out having fun that Foxnews searched for to get their Beavis and Butthead sound-byte.. but the real protestors who are out there for real reasons..How do they not want what you, a libertarian.. uh, a capitalist, would also want?

I didn't think you would ever get there, but you finally did, so congrats to that.

Although there is a lot of could say about the theater of OWS, such as the deaths, the sexual assaults, the anti-semitism, the violence, and the feces... so much feces..   But I don't come here to hippy punch, but to actually talk about the issues, for as  long as you can manage to do that (and history makes me think you will veer off of that soon enough).

I think that there are similar roots to both the tea party and OWS: they feel marginalized, don't think they have a seat at the table, disgusted at bail outs, and how the system seems to be gamed by those already in power.  When OWS first started, I mean that very first week, it seemed like their issues were crippling student loans and the unemployment that went with it.



I could understand that frustration.  You spent a lot of borrowed money for a degree, and then you graduate into the worse recession in decades.  However there really wasn't a policy solution to that. Some guy put on the OWS  website that they wanted all debts, including all student loan debts, erased, but I don't think the movement has coalesced around that idea, and it's totally impossible anyway.

Of course they got their name from the disgust at Wall Street.  They got bailed out, got their bonuses and those guys are doing great.  It's the whole rest of the economy that's in the shitter.

Then every old hippie and leftist started showing up to these things and you wouldn't get the same answer twice as to what OWS was all about.  Eventually that morphed into income inequality, which the policy solution for that is super high taxes on the wealthy.  But again, that doesn't seem to do much for the recently graduated, unemployed young person.  They are still out of work.  Thats a policy of strictly class envy, it doesn't actually help anything.

So maybe you know better than I, but what does OWS want now in terms of policy?  With the tea party, they had about half a dozen bullet points that they stuck with, but I don't have the same  list of OWS.  

[Howey]

I thought that sign looked a little too *perfect*. Note: We're not the muche. We don't fall for this bullshit. You should have remembered that. Take your fake libertarian and/or teabagger faked sign and shove it up your ass.

The above is just another example of what ekg was talking about. Instead of discussing actual, real issues; you fuckwads come up with this shit.

[Howey]

FYI...

lilMike's sick little FAKE SIGN came from this place, home of many more adolescent fake signs.

http://moonbattery.com/

[lil mike]

Well I admit I was punked.  I saw that on another forum and copied it. 

But I went to the site that generates them that Howey found and unfortunately the function to let you copy them is no longer operative (although you can generate and save your own).

Too bad.  I was going to do one that said, "No Toilets, No Peace."

[ekg]

I didn't think you would ever get there, but you finally did, so congrats to that.

I'm still waiting

Although there is a lot of could say about the theater of OWS, such as the deaths, the sexual assaults, the anti-semitism, the violence, and the feces... so much feces..   But I don't come here to hippy punch, but to actually talk about the issues, for as  long as you can manage to do that (and history makes me think you will veer off of that soon enough).

still waiting..

I think that there are similar roots to both the tea party and OWS: they feel marginalized, don't think they have a seat at the table, disgusted at bail outs, and how the system seems to be gamed by those already in power.  When OWS first started, I mean that very first week, it seemed like their issues were crippling student loans and the unemployment that went with it.



I could understand that frustration.  You spent a lot of borrowed money for a degree, and then you graduate into the worse recession in decades.  However there really wasn't a policy solution to that. Some guy put on the OWS  website that they wanted all debts, including all student loan debts, erased, but I don't think the movement has coalesced around that idea, and it's totally impossible anyway.

Of course they got their name from the disgust at Wall Street.  They got bailed out, got their bonuses and those guys are doing great.  It's the whole rest of the economy that's in the shitter.

Then every old hippie and leftist started showing up to these things and you wouldn't get the same answer twice as to what OWS was all about.  Eventually that morphed into income inequality, which the policy solution for that is super high taxes on the wealthy.  But again, that doesn't seem to do much for the recently graduated, unemployed young person.  They are still out of work.  Thats a policy of strictly class envy, it doesn't actually help anything.

So maybe you know better than I, but what does OWS want now in terms of policy?  With the tea party, they had about half a dozen bullet points that they stuck with, but I don't have the same  list of OWS.  

it took you awhile to there didn't you. .. you spent that time pointing out my deficiency in debating an issue without 'veering off'.. the irony..

I couldn't agree more with most of everything you said, once we finally got to the meat of the issue. But, I don't find it to be the problem you do. OWS is a unique phenomena , given that there isn't a singular issue at heart in any of the cities they are occupying. They are a voice, and only a voice, crying out that things are not right.. and things need to change. What isn't right? What needs to change? The list, as you would probably agree is simply to long and convoluted to name.. But that doesn't make the 'wrong' any less wrong.. It is that tho, that bothers your 'orderly' style the most. You like black and white, cut and dried.. a collage seems anarchist to you.. so you cannot see OWS for what it is.. this not an insult, no more than it would be an insult to say you can't see the shapes in those 3d posters that were popular a few years ago.. it's just what it is.. To you, OWS is a jumble.. but that is what makes them beautiful and dangerous..

we are a broken country right now, just look at the super-committee.. or better yet, look at you and I. Sure, I had a hand in 'breaking' us.. but I don't think it was any more or less than your hand in it also. The difference is I accept that and you're still blaming and insulting... OWS is what would be our child if we were  to have had one, something is wrong, their wrath is loud,bitchy and a little psycho.. but their feelings of anger and despair are genuine.  But most of all, they are not going to go away.. Foxnews like smears, the kinds of things you've said about them, mayors and police pepper-spraying them.. all that is only going to make them grow.. They have already changed the national dialog from "Debt Reduction" to  "Jobs and padded capitalism gone wild".. keep ignoring them, keep belittling them, allow your GOP leaders to keep egging them on with "Get a job, loser" remarks and they will only grow into something all politicians will fear.. because there will be a single voice eventually and with that voice will come retribution..

These people are not going away quietly, they've felt for years that things were wrong, that their country was really taken from.. not because a black man was elected like some of the Tea-Party felt, but really taken from them. Illegal wars were waged in their name with their money, their neighbors phones were tapped,their money was stolen from them by greed all while everyone sat on their hands and let it happen... laws have been passed that have take the singular voice from them and giving it to corporation and the highest bidder..bailouts were paid to banks while families were foreclosed on and thrown into the streets..

something is wrong in the country and they are out there letting everyone know that they know it..

Japanese Admiral Yamamoto once said "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant." ...That giant is awakening again with OWS...

[ekg]

I thought that sign looked a little too *perfect*. Note: We're not the muche. We don't fall for this bullshit. You should have remembered that. Take your fake libertarian and/or teabagger faked sign and shove it up your ass.

The above is just another example of what ekg was talking about. Instead of discussing actual, real issues; you fuckwads come up with this shit.

christ...

really Mike?

I simply don't get it.. is it that this kind of shit is easier? I mean, why bother with impossibly hard to fix issues when you can just make shit up...

[Howey]

Well I admit I was punked.  I saw that on another forum and copied it. 

But I went to the site that generates them that Howey found and unfortunately the function to let you copy them is no longer operative (although you can generate and save your own).

Too bad.  I was going to do one that said, "No Toilets, No Peace."

I'd like to think that you  were not, in fact, punk'd.

After realizing the sign was fake, a little google search showed that the fake picture is embraced by oodles of right wing forums and blogs. Another example  of lemmingg loons incapable of thinking for themselves and spreading the exact same spurrious bullshit ekg and I are pointing out. Shoddy work. Tsk, tsk.

That's what I'd expect from Iceman, not you.

[Howey]

Here's a real pic for you, lilMike. Far more honest than yours.

[lil mike]

I'm still waiting

still waiting..

it took you awhile to there didn't you. .. you spent that time pointing out my deficiency in debating an issue without 'veering off'.. the irony..

I couldn't agree more with most of everything you said, once we finally got to the meat of the issue. But, I don't find it to be the problem you do. OWS is a unique phenomena , given that there isn't a singular issue at heart in any of the cities they are occupying. They are a voice, and only a voice, crying out that things are not right.. and things need to change. What isn't right? What needs to change? The list, as you would probably agree is simply to long and convoluted to name.. But that doesn't make the 'wrong' any less wrong.. It is that tho, that bothers your 'orderly' style the most. You like black and white, cut and dried.. a collage seems anarchist to you.. so you cannot see OWS for what it is.. this not an insult, no more than it would be an insult to say you can't see the shapes in those 3d posters that were popular a few years ago.. it's just what it is.. To you, OWS is a jumble.. but that is what makes them beautiful and dangerous..

we are a broken country right now, just look at the super-committee.. or better yet, look at you and I. Sure, I had a hand in 'breaking' us.. but I don't think it was any more or less than your hand in it also. The difference is I accept that and you're still blaming and insulting... OWS is what would be our child if we were  to have had one, something is wrong, their wrath is loud,bitchy and a little psycho.. but their feelings of anger and despair are genuine.  But most of all, they are not going to go away.. Foxnews like smears, the kinds of things you've said about them, mayors and police pepper-spraying them.. all that is only going to make them grow.. They have already changed the national dialog from "Debt Reduction" to  "Jobs and padded capitalism gone wild".. keep ignoring them, keep belittling them, allow your GOP leaders to keep egging them on with "Get a job, loser" remarks and they will only grow into something all politicians will fear.. because there will be a single voice eventually and with that voice will come retribution..

These people are not going away quietly, they've felt for years that things were wrong, that their country was really taken from.. not because a black man was elected like some of the Tea-Party felt, but really taken from them. Illegal wars were waged in their name with their money, their neighbors phones were tapped,their money was stolen from them by greed all while everyone sat on their hands and let it happen... laws have been passed that have take the singular voice from them and giving it to corporation and the highest bidder..bailouts were paid to banks while families were foreclosed on and thrown into the streets..

something is wrong in the country and they are out there letting everyone know that they know it..

Japanese Admiral Yamamoto once said "I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping giant." ...That giant is awakening again with OWS...

Well you're right that I do see OWS as a jumble; no matter how much I squint the 3D just isn't' popping out to me, but I don't see that as a weakness.  Before I would throw my support to something, I would want to know what that something is.  OWS is vaguely leftish, but there is a whole lot of things that can fill in that gap.  I'm pretty sure it could be some things that you wouldn't like very much.  So although it could grow into something that could be a large political force in the same way the Tea Party did, as of now I would doubt that very much.  It would have to do a lot of morphing and the hardest part would be to actually corral behind some actual policy positions.  Then the grass roots organizing required to to make a difference in elections, such us going against incumbents to elect their own people in Democratic primaries, and then actually turning out to vote for their people on election day.  There doesn't seem enough time to do that.  The primaries are only a few months away.

Something is wrong, but you've just given a list of things you felt were wrong.  OWS lists may vary.  They are not your generation after all.

Yes we are a broken country, but you and I don't have a consensus on why or how to fix it.  I'm not sure OWS is even far enough along to have their own ideas on that.  And to me, I find that a dangerous situation to be in.  A lot of young people semi-organized but without a real concrete goal.  It sounds like they're ripe for a suitable demagogue. If it gets that far.

OWS is what would be our child if we were  to have had one

I'm double wrappin' it.

not because a black man was elected like some of the Tea-Party felt

Ha! You just couldn't help yourself!

[ekg]

Well you're right that I do see OWS as a jumble; no matter how much I squint the 3D just isn't' popping out to me, but I don't see that as a weakness.  Before I would throw my support to something, I would want to know what that something is.  OWS is vaguely leftish, but there is a whole lot of things that can fill in that gap.  I'm pretty sure it could be some things that you wouldn't like very much.  So although it could grow into something that could be a large political force in the same way the Tea Party did, as of now I would doubt that very much.  It would have to do a lot of morphing and the hardest part would be to actually corral behind some actual policy positions.  Then the grass roots organizing required to to make a difference in elections, such us going against incumbents to elect their own people in Democratic primaries, and then actually turning out to vote for their people on election day.  There doesn't seem enough time to do that.  The primaries are only a few months away.

I don't think there is a need for your normal 'grassroots' movement on this.. I think the voice is strong enough to elicit change before a "campaign" is nailed down..  Hell, BOA dropped that $5 charge because of them and now other banks will think twice about doing the same. <1/2 a million people took their money out of large banks and put into local credit unions in a single month, when usually that is an annual number..and this was all on just a 'whim' that OWS put together over night..

do you really thing mayors,senators,congressmen and the president aren't vividly aware of this movement and aren't scared to death of them IF they ever organize? the irony is, they don't need to organize.. because just their presence alone lets these people know they are out there and the whole world is watching..

if you want to know just how scared TPTB are, just watch FoxNews..

and it's not just OWS.. it's national, with the Walker recall, Kasich losing the vote and having to restore union-rights he tried to abolish,New Hampshire voters striking down newly implemented laws disallowing same day registration/voting..

I'm telling you, someone finally poked granpa one too many times and he's waking up pissed..

Something is wrong, but you've just given a list of things you felt were wrong.  OWS lists may vary.  They are not your generation after all.

very true.. but since I also see them as 'left-leaning' I don't think our lists would vary, very much..

Ha! You just couldn't help yourself!

help what? speaking the truth?  no, you're right.. I couldn't help myself.

[lil mike]

I don't think there is a need for your normal 'grassroots' movement on this.. I think the voice is strong enough to elicit change before a "campaign" is nailed down..  Hell, BOA dropped that $5 charge because of them and now other banks will think twice about doing the same. <1/2 a million people took their money out of large banks and put into local credit unions in a single month, when usually that is an annual number..and this was all on just a 'whim' that OWS put together over night..

do you really thing mayors,senators,congressmen and the president aren't vividly aware of this movement and aren't scared to death of them IF they ever organize? the irony is, they don't need to organize.. because just their presence alone lets these people know they are out there and the whole world is watching..

if you want to know just how scared TPTB are, just watch FoxNews..

and it's not just OWS.. it's national, with the Walker recall, Kasich losing the vote and having to restore union-rights he tried to abolish,New Hampshire voters striking down newly implemented laws disallowing same day registration/voting..

I'm telling you, someone finally poked granpa one too many times and he's waking up pissed..

very true.. but since I also see them as 'left-leaning' I don't think our lists would vary, very much..




help what? speaking the truth?  no, you're right.. I couldn't help myself.

So you see less traditional grass roots political organizing and more ... movement I guess would be the most appropriate word.

I think that's hard to sustain without those traditional steps and structures that I mentioned, but on the other hand, this might be something new, where social media allows you to skip all that and lets ideas just sort of flow out like a wave.

We'll know in a few months if these guys start knocking off Democratic incumbents for their own guys.

[Howey]

We'll know in a few months if these guys start knocking off Democratic incumbents for their own guys.

I don't think that's the idea. But I do think you know that...

[ekg]

So you see less traditional grass roots political organizing and more ... movement I guess would be the most appropriate word.

I think that's hard to sustain without those traditional steps and structures that I mentioned, but on the other hand, this might be something new, where social media allows you to skip all that and lets ideas just sort of flow out like a wave.

I think that's exactly it.. a social media enhanced movement. because of social media it doesn't have to be 'traditional' with a 'grass-roots' organization.. it can't be organized anyway since everyone is there for different reasons, every 'occupy' has it's own agenda..

It's going to be very hard to sustain, but as long as FoxNews unfairly and inaccurately vilifies them, as long as newt disparages them, as long as the police pepper-spray the innocent.. it will only grow... and in the end, even if it OWS were to 'die' today, there would be another tomorrow.. like I said, look at the Walker-recall, John Kasich's loss.. the outrage for what these Govs did started their own massive protests.. this is the new world, massive protests in different states, different cities with different agendas... "Occupy" has only 'organized' those singular protests and made them more impressive.. so in a way, they have already organized, because just the name 'occupy' instill fear...

so yeah, it is our own 'Arab spring' if you will.

We'll know in a few months if these guys start knocking off Democratic incumbents for their own guys.

well they did 'mic check' Obama, but their goal isn't in get rid of leaders and install crazy fanatics like Joe Walsh.. it's to let those who are already elected know the whole world is watching..

[lil mike]

I think that's exactly it.. a social media enhanced movement. because of social media it doesn't have to be 'traditional' with a 'grass-roots' organization.. it can't be organized anyway since everyone is there for different reasons, every 'occupy' has it's own agenda..

It's going to be very hard to sustain, but as long as FoxNews unfairly and inaccurately vilifies them, as long as newt disparages them, as long as the police pepper-spray the innocent.. it will only grow... and in the end, even if it OWS were to 'die' today, there would be another tomorrow.. like I said, look at the Walker-recall, John Kasich's loss.. the outrage for what these Govs did started their own massive protests.. this is the new world, massive protests in different states, different cities with different agendas... "Occupy" has only 'organized' those singular protests and made them more impressive.. so in a way, they have already organized, because just the name 'occupy' instill fear...

so yeah, it is our own 'Arab spring' if you will.

well they did 'mic check' Obama, but their goal isn't in get rid of leaders and install crazy fanatics like Joe Walsh.. it's to let those who are already elected know the whole world is watching..

What is this "Arab Spring" comparison?  I really don't get that.  Is Obama = Mubarak?

I thought this was a good breakdown of OWS now that the camps are gone.



http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/283927/second-act-ows-charles-c-w-cooke



We are also told by the likes of Douglas Rushkoff in the New York Times and the ever-reliable Naomi Klein in The Nation that it is precisely because OWS is not a political party and has no policy platform that it is powerful. Unfortunately for OWS, this somewhat anarchic approach relies heavily upon organic growth for success, and such growth never came. Despite claims to the contrary, neither Zuccotti Park nor the other encampments across the country were meeting points for ordinary and concerned citizens spontaneously taking to the streets. Instead, they were a veritable convention of the usual suspects. Members of the professional Left congregated and were soon joined by a steady procession of young acolytes, whose disappointment that their expensive college educations had not shielded them from the vicissitudes of the dire economy roused them to join the witch-hunt. Then — less innocuously — the homeless, the mentally ill, and the downright criminal joined the unholy partnership. The necessary dramatis personae for a successful insurrection never showed up and, if Act II is to be more successful, Occupy is going to need to expand its base to include the general public — the sort of people who are now bustling past Zuccotti Park as they did before, as if nothing out of the ordinary had ever happened there.

[Howey]

What is this "Arab Spring" comparison?  I really don't get that.  Is Obama = Mubarak?

The OWS movement is not about Obama. As much as you guys wish it was. I would suggest a look in the mirror to see who OWS is protesting against.

We are also told by the likes of Douglas Rushkoff in the New York Times and the ever-reliable Naomi Klein in The Nation that it is precisely because OWS is not a political party and has no policy platform that it is powerful.

Funny shit! The exact same thing can be said about the Tea Party. Except the OWS movement is growing in leaps and bounds and the Tea Party is withering at the vine.

Unfortunately for OWS, this somewhat anarchic approach relies heavily upon organic growth for success, and such growth never came. Despite claims to the contrary, neither Zuccotti Park nor the other encampments across the country were meeting points for ordinary and concerned citizens spontaneously taking to the streets. Instead, they were a veritable convention of the usual suspects. Members of the professional Left congregated and were soon joined by a steady procession of young acolytes, whose disappointment that their expensive college educations had not shielded them from the vicissitudes of the dire economy roused them to join the witch-hunt. Then — less innocuously — the homeless, the mentally ill, and the downright criminal joined the unholy partnership. The necessary dramatis personae for a successful insurrection never showed up and, if Act II is to be more successful, Occupy is going to need to expand its base to include the general public — the sort of people who are now bustling past Zuccotti Park as they did before, as if nothing out of the ordinary had ever happened there.

Wow...this Charles C. W. Cooke is quite the writer! Look at all those big words that say absolutely nothing!

Who is this guy? Seems like he showed up out of the blue (or should it be red?) sometime in June writing for the NRO (btw - if you ever communicate with Jonah Goldberg tell him I say Hi!) and after learning how to write he went immediately after the OWS crowd, echoing all the invalid talking points you're mimicking.

So...do you know who he really is, lilMike?